Sourdough in meat broth for Asian tortillas (master class)

But if I don't taste the difference - why bother?)))

For example: take a spoon of (wooden) sourdough, revive it with warm broth (100 ml), add 1/2 onion and 100 gr. flour. Then knead the dough, adding water, salt, the rest of the flour and fat. Put in a jar of sourdough 2-3 tbsp. l. new test, that is, feed her. Then it will remain in its "original" form and will only grow stronger. How do you think?

It is also an option.

Girls, my classmate (candidate of chemical sciences) now has a company for the supply of sour-milk starter cultures in industrial volumes. I began to pester her with a request to "pour out" a little sourdough, to which I received the answer: "Take the Activia and calm down. All factories in the region take the sourdough from us." I used to do this, and when I tried Belarusian kefir, I gave up the yoghurt sourdough. Because, according to my classmate, they push chemistry into all yoghurts - "Mom, don't cry."

[kubanochka]

Well, again .... Again I will not rest! Until I make scones! What are you virgins doing to me ?!
Here are the Kuban-Vyazma entertainers, they put a new cockroach in my head!
And now it's serious. kubanochka, Lena, for those in the tank - once again about the lactic acid component in the sourdough. Unfortunately, I don’t make my own milk; I didn’t manage to grow a sourdough for bread amongst the store. In my case, the usual aged curdled milk coped with this task. And that's what, in fact, the question is - will such curdled milk fit? Or is it something fatter should be?
And if you take market milk, let it turn sour and collect one inch? Will it fit?

[kubanochka]

kubanochka, LenaHow long can you store starter culture in the refrigerator? Should she be fed?

Eh, late I saw the recipe! Fasting has already begun ... Now for almost 2 months I will be tormented by the desire to cook them ...

[kubanochka]

kubanochka, Lena, good afternoon. Yesterday I muddied the leaven, hid it in a warm microwave, but it does not bubble. Need to make it warmer and wait? If such a use does not work?

[Burunduk]

In my case, the usual aged curdled milk coped with this task. And that's what, in fact, the question is - will such curdled milk fit?

Burunduk, Tanya, curdled milk will do. So you already have a fermented milk ferment ready? Add it to the onion broth mixture.

kubanochka, Lena, how much can you keep in the refrigerator? Should she be fed?

elenvass, Lena, this leaven is not eternal. You can feed, but it is enough for several pastries. Then the taste and aroma of the onion-bouillon leaves. And this is just the whole trick of these cakes. We here with Scarecrow collectively came to the conclusion that it is better to make such a bunch of broth-onion-flour-sour milk every time, keep the right time, 15-16 hours, and when kneading the dough, add either a pinch of butter yeast or a ripe available sourdough. Then it rises super, and the taste, aroma is not lost.

[kubanochka]

kubanochka,

We here with Scarecrow collectively came to the conclusion that it is better to make such a bunch of broth-onion-flour-sour milk every time, keep the right time, 15-16 hours, and add or a pinch of yeast when kneading the dough

I've baked the cakes twice already ... The second time I've added yeast. No photo, nothing to brag about yet. Tasty, but not ah ... I think my cakes lack pomp. Or should they not be very lush (although the video seems to be lush ...)? Next time I will try to give more time to rise before baking.
I was in Samarkand once, a very long time ago, but there we could not pass by the cakes ...
And my question is, how long can a sourdough live in a refrigerator? Let's say I baked cakes, fed the sourdough and put it in the refrigerator. How long can the sourdough last until the next bake?

And my question is, how long can a sourdough live in a refrigerator? Let's say I baked cakes, fed the sourdough and put it in the refrigerator. How long can the sourdough last until the next bake?

I had a week. The one that did on the 22nd is not in the refrigerator (although it is cool in my kitchen) and not fed. It looks and smells normal.

The fact that in the video there are lush cakes, so now they all are not on broth and onion sourdough. They are just yeast and water. Just yeast dough baked in a tandoor.

[kubanochka]

kubanochka, Helen. I had the sourdough on the table for 3 days, and it’s a pity to make the "desire dropped" and throw it away. Today my daughter wanted something "this" ... well, "those cakes that were last time." I didn't remember what was "there". In short, I took the sourdough starter from the top ... took off the crust on top, sniffed it - and it smells delicious ... hung it up - 800g, poured into the bread maker, added the rest to the eye - whey, flour, salt, some yeast and a couple of tablespoons of sunflower oil ... I kneaded, after an hour and a half, the dough began to lift the lid of the bread machine. Divided into 5 cakes ... baked in Princess. Well, what can I say - we all liked the flat cakes, sprinkled several of them with cheese on top (the granddaughter loves everything cheese).

It turned out something like this!
Another part of the sourdough is in the fridge ... I'll see what happens on Saturday. If interested - I will report.

[every time make such a bunch of broth-onion-flour-sour milk, keep]

Helen the Kitten! What a beautiful cake! How interesting it turned out with cheese. Still, there was not enough bacteria in the leaven, it gave a boost with the yeast. Magic pendel.
Once again I was convinced of the correctness of this algorithm

Scarecrow and I, collectively, came to the conclusion that it is better every time make such a bunch of broth-onion-flour-sour milk, keep the right time, 15-16 hours, and when kneading the dough add or a pinch of a little yeast or ripe available leaven... Then it rises super, and the taste, aroma is not lost.

Another part of the sourdough is in the fridge ... I'll see what happens on Saturday. If interested - I will report.

Of course interesting!

Then it rises super, and the taste, aroma is not lost.

I think that this is the most correct Magic pendel: friends: for beginners like me. The smell has not been preserved a little to this day, and if you add yeast right away, then the cakes will be AWESOME!

Helen, finally, and I muddied my sourdough at 20-40 today. My katyk stood by the stove for 5 days. And that I just didn't add to it - and old sour yogurt, and my own sour cream, and store sour cream weighed out ... I thought the end of my katyk would come. Not a fig. He only rejoiced and became more and more tasty and thicker. Yesterday I could not stand it and put it in the refrigerator - not sour at all. And today I got it, added Art. l. weekly weighed store sour cream, warmed on the table to room temperature, warmed the broth. In general, everything is as in the recipe. I put it in my impromptu "Asia" - a foam box with one free edge. She leaned against the warm stove with this side. This is how I melt all the dough in winter. Successful boring chamber. The test likes it. I put down the thermometer. Now I looked - real Asia! 34 *. Is that a lot for the leaven? It will be a little cooler overnight.
Len, another question. A thick layer of fat has formed on my broth. I took it all off. And she made sourdough on this "lean" broth. Did I do it in vain? Maybe you should have reheated the broth along with the fat? Or will it go?

I am writing in detail, so that later I myself do not forget what I did and how ...

[Lenochka]

Lenochka, it is a pity that I presented this recipe earlier. Now he would become a worthy competitor in this competition

[Albina]

Albina, I think Lena needs to write a recipe for cakes as a separate topic. And submit the recipe to the competition by making a link in the recipe to your sourdough. Then everything will be OK. Only I talk about this Lena wherever possible, and she is silent, like a partisan! Lenaaaaaaa! The public is asking. No, it does! Write a recipe for flatbread, put it on the competition. You are welcome !

A thick layer of fat has formed on my broth. I took it all off. And she made sourdough on this "lean" broth. Did I do it in vain? Maybe you should have reheated the broth along with the fat? Or will it go

Lyudochka, I took off fat. I then kneaded it into the dough.
Now everything is in expectation. If only the katyk could do it. (sorcery woman, sorcerer grandfather, sorcerer gray bear ... Sourdough, turn out!) Shaman, like ...

Girls, of course, I'll post the recipe. I came up with a few chips here. Mustache will be ...

[Len, and you didn’t answer me about my temperature at 34 *. Please clarify!]

Lyudochka, I took off fat. I then kneaded it into the dough.

Well, then I did the right thing. Then I'll knead the fat into the dough!

Now everything is in expectation. If only the katyk could do it. (sorcery woman, sorcerer grandfather, sorcerer gray bear ... Sourdough, turn out!) Shaman, like ...

Thank you Lenochka ! You are a noble "witch". Everything should work out with your prayers!

Girls, of course, I'll post the recipe. I came up with a few chips here. Mustache will be ...

Well, thank God! Helen, let me kiss you for this!
Len, and you didn’t answer me about my temperature at 34 *. Please clarify!

Now everything is in expectation. If only the katyk could do it. (sorcery woman, sorcerer grandfather, sorcerer gray bear ... Sourdough, turn out!) Shaman, like ...

Lenok, so the most important thing in the recipe has missed Conspiracy words.

Girls, of course, I'll post the recipe.

Thank God

Len, and you didn’t answer me about my temperature at 34 *. Please clarify!

Above 39 is not necessary, but this is normal, so - Asia ...

[Albina]

Lenok, so the most important thing in the recipe missed Conspiracy words

Albina! So this is the most important ingredient in all the recipes. And also to talk to Leaven ... Explain to her that you don't want to, but you have to ... so it's better to do it yourself, without a pendel.

Lenochka, thanks! Higher and will not be. It will drop to 28 degrees overnight. But in the morning the husband will light the stove and rise again. So, I will sleep well! Tomorrow I will report what I have and how ...

Lenochkaaaaaaaaaaaaa ...
Lenochka, in general, is reporting. The Internet was turned off at 12 at night and only recently it started up. It's good that I copied your recipe to my computer, otherwise I wouldn't know what I would do.
In general, 2 hours after mixing, my sourdough was boiling like crazy. The temperature in the chamber rose to 38 *. In the morning it was 31 *. By the time I got it, it was 34 *. I took out the leaven after 14 hours, because it seemed to me that it had been ready for a long time (at such and such temperature). She even dropped 1 cm. In general, she grew 4 times. For the cake, I did not separate 400 gr. sourdough, but 200, because I wanted to bake 1 cake, to bake the next one taking into account mistakes, if suddenly something does not work out.
I counted all the other ingredients on the calculator. Kneading in HP. She let the dough stand again in her chamber at a temperature of 34 * 3 hours. I formed one cake not very thinly, pierced it with a chekich (yes, I have it!) I deflated the blank for 15 minutes (for some reason it seemed to me that this should be done). I sprinkled water on the cake from a spray bottle, since it is difficult to create steam in my mini-oven. Baked for 10 minutes at 250 *, 10 minutes at 220 *, and baked at 200 * for 10 minutes.
Here are pictures of the process:
So my leaven was covered with cling film. For air access, I pierced the film with a toothpick:



And this sourdough after 14 hours - dropped by 1 cm, although it was still blowing bubbles:



Gingerbread man in motion:



Dough after 3 hours of proofing. It has increased in volume, but rather diffused than rose.



And this is the cake itself



The gap



The cake was tasted immediately, hot. The first impression is that you could keep it in the oven for another 5 - 7. But I'll try it in 3 hours, when the crumb is fully ripe. The crust is thin and crispy. Myakish is covered in holes. Acidic. It was me who apparently overdid it with my katyk (5 days in a warm place) or temperature (38 - 31 *). By weight - heavy. But I don't remember light sourdough cakes either. They are always heavier than yeast. This, one might say, is a sign by which you can always distinguish a sourdough cake from a yeast cake. But the crumb is not at all dense, light, not sticky. And not at all a crouton, like some girls have - a high-quality flatbread, very soft on the inside and crispy on the outside.
It is unnecessary to write about the fragrance during the whole process - incomparable. My husband walked around the oven, barely waiting for the end of baking. I broke it myself, hot.I just persuaded him to give me a picture of a cake. After tasting, he said that this is a real cake. He has many acquaintances in the Kazakh auls. They baked him. So he knows a lot about them.
Well, of course, I didn't eat, but I ate every crumb (and almost cried with happiness). Although, of course, not a single crumb was at the break.
Despite this delight, I noticed some points that I want to exclude in the future. Then it will be the standard of the Asian flatbread.
1. Salt was not enough for me. I'll put more next time. By the way, before planting in the tandoor, the cakes are moistened with strong salted water. And then the crust turns out to be slightly saltier than the crumb. An awesome combination! In general, we will fix the undersalt.
2. I would like to reduce the acid. Flax, did I overdo it with katyk, adding sour yogurt to it? Or with a temperature?
Len ... And Len ... do you understand what you did for me? Not only did you teach me how to bake real cakes. But thanks to you, I am now not afraid of leaven. I shied away from them like the devil with incense. And now...
Helen, honey! You are my hero! I love you. Thank you! That's it ... While I'm rounding up ... Then I'll try a real cake and again I will write rave reviews.

Lyuyuudaaa, I also want such a cake!

Burunduk, Tanyusha, yogurt will do. So you already have a fermented milk ferment ready? Add it to the onion broth mixture

There is something, but it is on rye flour, fed with whey. And not very strong (but my 100% rye bread raises one and a half times, or even almost two times). Will this work?

Lyuyuudaaa, I also want such a cake!

Thank you, Tanyusha! For so many years I wanted to learn such a stove that I could not help but succeed! Come on, Tanya, try it! You will definitely succeed! I'll hold my fists for you!

Good evening, or even good night! I'm new to the forum, while I've been reading for several days (getting to know each other)! The topic of Uzbek flatbreads has been of interest to me for a long time, since I also lived in Uzbekistan (Tashkent region). All my childhood was spent there and the taste, so to speak, "familiar from childhood". I knew that cakes were baked with sourdough, but I myself have never tried it (with yeast faster) ..., but here I couldn't resist! With sourdough, for the first time it did not work out - she did not want to "drink", added a spoonful of yeast - and happiness "flooded"! I left one "kolobok" and froze it. Today I took it out, the bun was thawed and I added it to the sourdough - this time the sourdough turned out without adding yeast. I just remember that my neighbor always left one kolobok and "buried" it in a large amount of flour. The cakes were usually baked twice a week, and from this kolobok, the contents with a very intense smell were removed and added to the fresh sourdough.

[Helen, once again I tell you this]

Lena, girls, I report on the taste of the cake after 4 hours of exposure. An amazing thing happened. The sour taste has completely (!!!) disappeared. Well, quite right! Some kind of mysticism. The flatbread remained the same soft with a crispy crust. I like to reheat bread on the toaster. While eating the first bite, the second arrived. If in the first one barely caught the aroma and aftertaste of onions, then in the heated version it manifested itself in all its glory. In general, I ate and baldela.
Conclusion: I did the right thing that I prepared katyk in such a non-standard way - for 5 days next to the stove with the addition of any sour milk (fresh sour cream, weekly store sour cream by weight, very sour homemade yogurt) into the milk evaporated up to 2/3 of the volume. This katyk, apparently, gave such a lifting force to the leaven and dough. And I also created a truly Asian temperature for sourdough, dough and preparation. In addition, the beginning of baking at 250 * first gave a sharp swelling of the cake, which was preserved in the future. And the cake turned out to be rosy.
What will I change next time? Nothing! They do not seek from goodness. Only add a little salt to the dough.
Helen, once again I tell you this

1. Salt was not enough for me. I'll put more next time.By the way, before planting in the tandoor, the cakes are moistened with strong salted water. And then the crust turns out to be slightly saltier than the crumb. An awesome combination! In general, we will fix the undersalt.

Lyudochka, just about. My mother-in-law also told me. that they were smeared with water before baking. It is necessary. I will revive the leaven tonight. which she had done before and had already fed. I will revive in broth. In the morning I will knead the dough on it, and in the evening I will bake it. Write later. what and how. Now the leaven smells like onions, it's incredible!

And what do you think is a sourdough?)) Yeast mushrooms in combination with MKB (lactic acid bacteria). Wild strains.

It's your business, of course, I don't know where you got this information, microbiologists say something completely different. How much I work with sourdough - I would not advise and overheat it. The rate of its work at a temperature of about 30 degrees, maybe up to 42. Optimal for yeast - a little over 20. Then yeast actively reproduces. The higher the temperature, the less yeast and the more LAB. The leaven is sour. But most of the ICD also live within 42 degrees, and then they die.

Natasha, here's the continuation of our dialogue: yesterday on "Povaryonka" I accidentally read:
"
February 25 | Faifly # +2
Let me disagree. In order for the yeast to die in an unbaked dough, it must VERY stand still, or your kitchen must have a temperature above 50C. Yeast, depending on the type, dies at a temperature of 55-60C, and when pouring the dough into a frying pan, they most likely in the first second or two are still alive. Well, or even if they valiantly die within milliseconds after touching a hot surface, then the carbon dioxide that they have already produced quickly evaporates from the dough and forms the desired holes

As for the extinguishing of soda, as a former chemist, I totally agree with natnagy. Slaking soda is essentially a translation of the product, as well as a sure way to cram more sodium into the dough than you need (it is especially stupid if you are trying to keep track of the amount of salt in your food).
I will also add that soda does not even matter if there is acid in the dough, since NaHCO3 self-decomposes into Na2CO3, water and carbon dioxide when heated ... above 50C! The process takes place especially quickly at 200C (therefore, by the way, large baked goods on soda rise a little longer than yeast baked goods - the dough needs to be warmed up more so that a lot of carbon dioxide is formed).

Therefore, I can assume that if your dough has really stood, then adding baking soda just before frying the pancakes will help them rise. (Although in your recipe, let me remind you, it is instructed to wait 15-20 minutes, and during this time a significant amount of soda and yeast will kill each other). And if there is a lot of dough and, while you are frying pancakes, it will stand by the hot stove for half an hour or longer, then most likely everything loosening will be exhausted there.

In general, I want to assure you: I have fried pancakes many times with yeast (and with sour bread sourdough, where the yeast is much more tender, too) and they rise perfectly without any soda. Of course, if, according to the custom of your grandmother, you leave the dough overnight, and in your kitchen they heat it for slaughter, then it will easily oxidize in 6-8-10 hours, in this case, it is probably worth adding soda at the last moment.
Another option is to ferment in the refrigerator! I often do this with bread and other yeast dough, it rises perfectly in the cold (you just need to let it stand for at least 10 minutes at room temperature for the fermentation process to start). In general, long fermentation is very useful, and pastries made from long-fermented dough are much healthier and more nutritious than fast ones. The grain is a seed, and the seed does not want to be eaten and digested. It wants to be eaten and, sorry, popped out, and it would sprout. Therefore, the seeds are full of toxins that prevent digestion. Over the centuries, mankind has come up with many ways to "trick" the grain into thinking that it has fallen into optimal conditions for germination and "turned off" these toxins. Fermentation, soaking, sprouting - all these are ways to make the grain of the harmful useful.In our hectic time, they forgot about it, but in vain


February 25 | Faifly # +1
I am dull, of course, the yeast does not die immediately when the dough hits the pan!
Will explain.
The surface of your frying pan heats up somewhere around 200-230C (if the oil on it smokes heavily, it means even higher). BUT - if the dough immediately reached this temperature, it would instantly turn into charcoal
In fact, it takes time to heat up the dough, and the evaporating moisture and gas slows down this process significantly (evaporation cools). By the time the top of the pancake dries up and the pancake can be turned over, the dough will barely warm up to 75-80C. (I judge this by the fact that the temperature in the center of a freshly baked loaf of bread reaches 91-93C - if it is higher, then it is heavily baked. And a pancake, fried on one side, is usually slightly wetter than bread crumb, which means that its temperature is lower) ...
By the time the pancake can be turned over, of course, all the yeast has already died. BUT - in the first 10-30 seconds (thin pancakes, thick ones may have a couple of minutes) after pouring the dough into a frying pan, they are still very much alive and vigorously emit gas.
Therefore, it is unnecessary to add soda, IMHO. I repeat - if you add it to a heavily overstocked dough IMMEDIATELY before baking, then it makes sense. Otherwise, it will only reduce the acidity of the dough and kill some of the yeast. She will not sit and wait until the alkali gets into the sour dough - it will neutralize it on the sly "
🔗

[Nana]

Nana,

Oksana, well, some aunt from the forum is not an authority for me (I don’t touch on soda, I’m talking about yeast).

There is "Professional Baking" by Paul Figoni, there is Matveeva, Belyavskaya "Biotechnological Basics of Bread Making" and a number of other books. I am guided by them. Matveeva, Belyavskaya describe some races and strains of yeast that are isolated for baking. Their main survival rate is within 40 degrees. There are temperatures that can withstand 45. The optimum fermentation temperature is up to 30 degrees. Somewhere given 32 degrees, for example. Figoni describes that by 50 degrees fermentation slows down considerably because yeast cells die. At 60 it stops almost completely - they die. The optimum fermentation temperature is 25-28 degrees.

So why do you need a temperature of 50? Which kills the bulk of the colonies, and puts the other on the brink of death? At the same time, ALL specialists call a different temperature optimal. Sourdough is a combination of LAB and wild yeast. Yeast, in my opinion, is about 13 species, ICD - about 10. I can’t guarantee, I don’t remember exactly. It is this variety that creates the indescribable smell and richness of taste of sourdough bread. All of them have different survival rates (both in terms of minimum temperature and maximum) and for many - below + 40 degrees. Everyone lives up to 30. Some of them will withstand your 50 and will not die, but the richness of the microflora of the sourdough will be completely ruined. Some of the strains most resistant to temperature will remain. So, why use exactly 50 and destroy the microflora of your culture? They rage at 28 - I don't have time to feed. If you gape a little, it gets acidic. And I know that everyone there is alive and well and prospering))).

I am not in any way trying to impose something on you. You, of course, are free to do as you see fit, I'm just trying to argue my position.

And I swelled the cake dough: I blurted out an onion, a large broth (I drained the liquid from the stew), sour cream (there was a leftover one), flour, warm water, a small piece of fresh pressed yeast. Stands, gurgles. It will gurgle for a few more hours - I'll start the main dough. With milk !! According to your favorite recipe. Just on broth and onion dough. I like it better. Well, it seems to me)). In short, there will be such a kneading out of everything at once - tin))). Tell you later. what happened)).

Helen, ayuu ... where are you? Today I baked a cake from a fed leaven.This is how she came out of the refrigerator - bubbled slightly and did not go down, like the last time (even the photo was not important, but you can still see it):



And this is a finished cake. I added more salt than according to the recipe, since I did not have enough salt in the last cake. A little later, when it cools down, we will try, then I will show the crumb.

I baked it. It tastes good. But the dough is not right at work again. I can't catch it. And the middle always swells !! What I didn’t prick and what consistency the dough was. Shaw is this ?!)))

And the middle always swells !! What I didn’t prick and what consistency the dough was. Shaw is this ?!)))

Riddle! Are they hot downstairs?

[lappl1]

lappl1,

I already had the stupid idea that my pillow wasn't round enough. And the "rim" is attached first. Air remains under the center, it heats up and protrudes the central part. It turns out a kind of dome.

[Nata]

Nata, and if not in a tandoor, but in the oven, try to bake? I wonder if the middle will behave the same way there?

[Scarecrow]

Scarecrow, I wonder what your middle is swelling ... and you prick well, well, through? I also got swollen when I did it badly, and even if you bake in the tandoor, then moisten the cake a bit so that it sticks to the middle, if the middle is fried to the tandoor, it may not swell.
I understood why my first sourdough did not want to "drink" ... because I bought bio yogurt (later I read that the cow was fed with grass, and what other people feed on ... The second time I took "buhtelki" with some kind of crops , that's when she started to drink from me, and then she added a bun from the first one, and everything worked out as expected.Yes, I also did not grind the onion with a blender for the second time, but finely chopped and "squeezed" then filled it with hot broth I added flour to the warm one, and then yogurt.
I just don't know how to insert a photo into the gallery, but how to insert it here? I will try to transfer, if not, then tell me!
such was a cake (there were several of them), and this is already in the heat of the heat.

[lappl1]

lappl1,

And I haven't tried ... I must try. Here's the principle.))

Nikitosik
I stab it through and through. I knock directly with a meat tenderizer (it has long and pointed thorns). I grease the reverse side with salt water, as expected. In short, everything is according to science, but why they swell - I don't know !!)))

[Nikitosik]

Nikitosik, correct cakes! Well done !

I understood why my first sourdough did not want to "drink" ... because I bought bio yogurt

Yes Yes, Nikitosik, from the first time, apparently, I got a "buhtelka", because I made katyk for 5 days from evaporated milk with any sour milk. Apparently, he liked this business. Now, he started the leaven as it should be! So, we conclude that we need high-quality sour milk. And preferably not the first freshness.

And I haven't tried ... I must try. Here's the principle.))

Nata, try it, maybe it will get better!

Girls, here's today's cake in a "break". The taste is awesome! Better first. Apparently, because the leaven has become more active. In addition, for the first time I almost finished a cake. This time she baked for 7 minutes longer. And the salt is just right! Now nothing distracts from just enjoying the taste! He is the most correct taste! The photo could not be made well. In fact, the cake is even fluffier and "full of holes".

[Nana]

Nana,

So, why use exactly 50 and destroy the microflora of your culture? They rage at 28 - I don't have time to feed. If you gape a little, it gets acidic. And I know that everyone there is alive and well and prospering))).

I am not in any way trying to impose something on you. You, of course, are free to do as you see fit, I'm just trying to argue my position.

Natasha, I'm not trying to impose either. We find the truth in dialogue. I've been keeping the temperature from 40 to 50 all the time and the bread is excellent. But here's what embarrassed me in your words: "If you gape a little, it oozes."I never get acidic. They play sourdoughs and dough on them, Mom don't worry, even if I can't do bread (sometimes for a very long time). And they never peroxidized. Maybe there are bacteria in my leaven that "can be sent into space?" But I can withstand this temperature for rye, wheat, and lactic acid starter cultures. If the bacteria died, the product would not work?

[Nana]

Nana,

Peroxidation is normal when the starter is very active. Because the product of the active vital activity of yeast (under anaerobic conditions, that is, with the resulting oxygen deficiency) is alcohols (a characteristic mash smell) and acids. The product of the vigorous activity of the ICD is lactic acid. Hence - a pronounced sour taste. ... That is, if I forget to feed on time, I will leave it warm - they are so rowdy there that they immediately ferment.

A large mass of acid is nevertheless given by MKB. Maybe you just don't have them there anymore? Therefore, there is no one else to produce lactic acid? Judging by the fact that the leaven is rising - yeast is there, of course. The question of the diversity of yeast and LAB species that have survived there. In theory, only the most tenacious and far away and not all species have survived))).

[Nana]

Nana, Scarecrow, girls! I am following your discussion with great interest. I have never made sourdough. This one, in meat broth, is the first. Thank you for sharing your experiences and opinions. As a beginner in leaven, I really want to know where the truth is.

[Nana]

Nana,

Peroxidation is normal when the starter is very active. Because the product of the active life of yeast (under anaerobic conditions, that is, with the resulting oxygen deficiency) are alcohols (a characteristic mash smell) and acids. The product of the vigorous activity of the ICD is lactic acid. Hence - a pronounced sour taste. ... That is, if I forget to feed on time, I will leave it warm - they are so rowdy there that they immediately ferment.

A large mass of acid is nevertheless given by MKB. Maybe you just don't have them there anymore? Therefore, there is no one else to produce lactic acid? Judging by the fact that the leaven is rising - yeast is there, of course. The question of the diversity of yeast and LAB species that have survived there. In theory, only the most tenacious and far away and not all species have survived))).

Natasha, sour taste and peroxidation are two different things. I mean, my sourdough never gets acidic, it lives normally for a long time in the form of a dough or dough. And in the literature it is described that the real leaven cannot, in principle, peroxide and ferment. Yeast bacteria are everywhere, but the sourdough is different in that it has its own flavor, determined by the bacteria in it. My products fit very well. baked and, importantly, stored: without mold and staleness. So I don't think they would be like that if the bacteria were killed in them. And this is a fact! These products are there. And over time, they only improve their qualities.
I do not know, but for me the ancient Slavic secrets of bakery have been and will be authoritative. And modern technologies are more designed for the technology of baking bread according to recipes, where the leaven is always mixed with at least a small amount of yeast. This is not for me. In such cases, it is really impossible to exceed the temperature above 30 "kopecks" degrees.

[Nana]

Nana, Scarecrow, girls! I am following your discussion with great interest. I have never made sourdough. This one, with meat broth, is the first. Thank you for sharing your experiences and opinions. As a beginner in leaven, I really want to know where the truth is.

Lyudochka, leaven is a member of the family, it is alive. Well, she can only be compared with the Brownie. She always conveys my mood and health to the product. When I cook, I talk to her. I ask God for blessings. And the product turns out to be somehow healing, or something! The leaven, how would you start it, will acquire the environment that surrounds it. That's what's going on in the house, so it will be in the leaven.What is the atmosphere in the house, so she behaves. A very wonderful product, I can tell you!

[Oksana]

Oksana, Thank you ! How warm you talk about leaven! Lenochka warned that it was necessary to talk to her. I said a lot of mine. She heard me. And the first time everything worked out.

Natasha, sour taste and peroxidation are two different things.

For me they are the same thing. In the end, these are not specific terms, and you can put some of your own meanings into it, whatever you want, and I use the word "peroxidation" precisely as a description of the process of acquiring a sour taste by the leaven. That is, I didn't feed it on time, forgot about it - you get it: lactic acid and other acids accumulate, acid destroys gluten and the leaven becomes sour in taste and stretching. If it is not too acidic, several feedings can refresh it and eliminate this sour taste. If it's strong, it's easier to throw it away.
Sourdough is a living substance, and it continues its vital activity constantly (only if it is not at a negative temperature, of course, or in boiling water). And at room temperature, without feeding and any manipulations, it cannot be in the same state for any length of time. The fermentation process is underway. Now, if you feed in a timely manner - nothing will happen to her, and she will live in this mode (with constant and timely feedings) for a very long time. She rages with me between feedings, she is comfortable, so the phase "we are here, mom, have already eaten everything - feed us again" very quickly. To be honest))). And since I periodically forget about it (feed it on time) and miss feeding time, it acquires a pronounced smell of mash and a sour taste. I prefer to keep it in the refrigerator at 4 degrees, which, in fact, is also not good, but it is better than feeding 3 times a day.
So, over the course of several years, I took out a bunch of leavens and ruined them with my forgetfulness just as regularly))). Sometimes I could forget in the refrigerator for a couple of weeks. At least on the table it catches the eye, but at room temperature the process is generally going at a breakneck speed ... In a few hours (depending on the temperature) it increases 4 times (reaches a peak) and freezes.

I also keep my starter cultures in the refrigerator, after the last poezkin 21 days both were reanimated! : girl-yes: But before that I fed them flour with bran.