Gluten Free / Gluten Free Baking in Panasonic Bread Makers.

Good evening !
Help pliz advice, about the baker))

We recently bought 2512, when baking gluten-free bread according to the standard recipe from the instructions (water - 430 ml., Vegetable oil - 1 tbsp. L, mixture - 500 g, yeast - 4 tsp.) It turned out as in the pictures: the bottom half - normal, upper - buggy. They did it 2 times, the result is the same.
What does it mean ? ))

[yeast - 4 tsp]

(water - 430 ml., vegetable oil - 1 tbsp. l, mixture - 500 g., yeast - 4 tsp.)

Lots of yeast !!! Reduce to 2 tsp.
And be careful - your spatula is stuck in the bread, pulled out before slicing the bread.

Lots of yeast !!! Reduce to 2 tsp.
And be careful - your spatula is stuck in the bread, pulled out before slicing the bread.

Sorry, wrong, they added 1 tsp. (as in the instructions).
Yes, the spatula gets stuck in this case, but not in ordinary bread.

[timcha]

timcha, And on what mode did you bake?
In the instructions (for my oven) there is a recipe for gluten-free bread for baking on the 1st "Basic" mode (4 hours), and with 1 tsp of yeast. And the rest of the recipes for the special mode "Gluten Free".

Look carefully at your instructions. The cooking mode is indicated above each recipe.

[Waist]

Waist, if you mean the menu number, then - 11 (gluten free).

Damn the link to the instruction I can not insert.
In general, the cooking time for menu '11' is 1.50-1.55 hours.

Do you also have a 2512?

[timcha]

timcha, I looked at the instructions for your stove.
I also have 2512, but for Europe. There are other recipes designed for other mixtures.

Look at the package for the recommendations of the manufacturer of the mixture (this is also recommended in the instructions), how much water is needed for 500 grams? If everything is observed (proportions and baking mode), then the dough was thick, that is, it is necessary to increase the water by 1-2 tablespoons (15-30 ml). When heated, the yeast did not have enough strength to stretch / raise the dough, therefore, with an increase in temperature at the beginning of baking, the unfinished yeast began to work harder and, as a result, broke the loaf. That is, by the time of baking, the dough did not reach the required volume, the yeast did not work out, because it was hard for them in the tight dough

For CP, the dough should be slightly softer / thinner than for bread designed for baking in the oven.

[Waist]

Waist, on the package there are ingredients for a bread machine: mixture - 300 g, salt - 1 tsp, sugar - 2 tsp, yeast - 1.5 tsp, butter - 2 tbsp. l., water - 225 ml.
We did it once, it turned out somehow shapeless: on the sides - bread, in the middle there is almost emptiness or failure (sorry, I forgot to take a picture).

the unfinished yeast began to work harder and, as a result, broke the loaf so.

That is, and because of this, the upper half turned out to be incomplete? The transition from bread to under-bread is clearly visible there.

[timcha]

timcha, if the recipe on the package with the mixture is given specifically for HP, then it must be recalculated for 500 g of the mixture, as indicated in the recipe for the HP itself, since the recipe in the instructions is designed for an automatic program.

Recalculation of any recipe for any ingredient:

The recipe from the instructions for 500 g of the mixture means that everything else needs to be recalculated for these 500 g

Always take the available amount of one particular ingredient and divide by the amount in the recipe to get a factor.

In this way : we have 500 g mixes / on 300 gr in the recipe on package = rounded 1,67... it coefficient to recalculate this recipe from 300 to 500!

salt: 1 tsp = 5 ml x 1.67 = 8.35 ml ~ 1.5 tsp
sugar: 2 tsp = 10 ml x 1.67 = 16.7 ml ~ 1 tbsp
yeast: 1.5 tsp = 7.25 ml x 1.67 = 12.1 ml = ~ 2.5 tsp
oil: 2 tbsp. l = 30 ml x 1.67 = 50 ml (3 tbsp +1 tsp or ~ 45 g oil)
water: 225 ml x 1.67 = 375 ml

Try the recounted recipe.

Added Wednesday 29 Mar 2017 09:20 PM

Be sure to re-read all the instructions for baking gluten-free bread in the instructions. Everything is important!

deleted

[Waist]

Recalculation of any recipe for any ingredient

Waist Yes, I just wanted to do so next time)
The only thing that bothers you is that when you count the water it turns out 375 ml, which is less than in the instructions 430 ml.
Although, as you wrote and fffuntic, on the contrary, more water is needed.

you need to select the water temperature according to the instructions

fffuntic, the water temperature is not indicated in the instructions.
In fact, there are only two differences in the steps in the instructions for making gluten-free bread:
- 5-10 minutes after the start of mixing, you need to clean the stuck flour inside the mold with a spatula
- the order of the ingredients: water, salt, sugar - gluten-free mixture - dry yeast
That's where to put the yeast is also a question, we put it in the dispenser.

If you stubbornly insist on this amount of water

No-no-no, not with my knowledge it is stubborn to insist

Gingerbread man and gluten-free should be alive.

By the way, there was no kolobok there, like with ordinary bread. There is something semi-liquid, semi-solid, distributed throughout the bottom.
Thanks for the help !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[timcha]

The only confusing thing is that when you recalculate water, you get 375 ml, which is less than 430 ml in the instructions.
Although, as you wrote and fffuntic, on the contrary, more water is needed.

So it embarrassed me. What is the name of the mixture? Maybe I'll look and look for / subtract something

the water temperature is not indicated in the instructions.

In the recipes for my stove, it is indicated for different recipes: boiling water + from the tap / just water / warm water. Also, for gluten-free mixtures with fiber, you need more water.

By the way, there was no kolobok there, like with ordinary bread. There is something semi-liquid, semi-solid, distributed throughout the bottom.

I've baked gluten-free bread before, but not on a special program, not according to the recipe from the instructions, and not from a ready-made mixture. So the kolobok has never been there either, because gluten-free is essentially a starch mix with the addition of gum or psyllium, which swelling to form mucus that replaces gluten, so that there is at least some rubberiness in the bread, otherwise there will be a cake or biscuit. I think so But all the same: a lot of water will fail, a little water will rip out the middle, like yours.

Yes, even .. yeast and yeast strife.

Here, yes. And what kind of yeast are you, timchaused?

**************

What can I say, automatic HP is a precise device to which you need to adjust and adjust recipes. If you like this bread, then you can finish it. If you do not like it, it happens that the body simply does not accept some tastes, then you can look for another recipe - bake and adjust to the program. Now the good thing is that many specific products have appeared and, as a result, new recipes.

[timcha]

post in later edition
timcha
let's digress from the instructions and the bread maker.
Let's say you are making bread by hand. You would consider all factors. For example, what if water gets on dry yeast, they will die. For example, if it gets on dry yeast - ice water - they will die twice. If you knead a cool dough, the yeast will sleep for a long time, they do not like to move in the cold
Then, you knead this mixture with the handles. Dilute with some water so that everything is mixed, with handles mix everything well with yeast.

So the machine is iron handles.
It is also necessary to pour the mixture so that the iron handles can mix and stir properly.
I explain about water literally for the program Without Gluten
"take warm water in a cold room " This means that the program does not heat up at all on this program. If you pour cold water, you will have alles. That is, the colder it is in the room, the warmer the mixing water should be. Not from the tap in a cold room.
Minimum for water should be 40 degrees at a room temperature up to 24 degrees. Yeast likes a temperature of 32 degrees. So try to knead dough initially 20-24 degrees to heat up to the end kneading up to 30-33 ... Otherwise the yeast will sleep.
You yourself need to adjust the temperature of your dough with the warm water to the beginning of fermentation
Mix the yeast into the mixture. Do not allow direct contact with water.
Berezheniy ... you know. If yeast doesn't like contact with water, it won't, despite all your reasons. Well take a break, disagreeing with you

Next look here
Gluten Free Bread

if you have a similar mixture, you never told us the composition, then you will be guided by the kolobok and so on. Rummage through the forum, you can find more pictures. Or write the composition here, we will estimate how moisture-capacious it is.

Added Thursday, 30 Mar 2017 02:27

and .. if you count the water according to the instructions, pour the yeast from the dispenser into the water, then, believe me, we will have a long and fruitless conversation here on why the bread is crooked today.

You do not need to count, but add water, as if you were doing it with pens. Touch the dough so that it is warm and not overtight. In general, not for packaging, but with a nose in HP.
It is necessary to get for you the optimal consistency of the mixture, depending on its composition. And warm ... yeast is not a penguin, no matter how they want it, they can only live in warmth.
Help link. Read even the comments in detail there

[Waist]

Waist, fffuntic, thanks again, we will experiment

What is the name of the mixture?

Damn, you can't insert a link.

Garnets. Gluten Free Blend "Gray Bread"

What yeast did you use?

Dry fast-acting

[timcha]

timcha, You are a beginner. And on the forum it is customary to allow inserting links and photos after a certain number of messages. This is protection against trolls and spam. Don't worry, soon you will be able to insert photos and links.

[The composition of the product]

Garnets. Gluten Free Blend "Gray Bread"

Thank you, I looked and read a little. This mixture is very much praised, they write that it turns out delicious bread.

The composition of the product : rice flour, unboiled buckwheat flour, corn starch, tapioca starch, potato starch, amaranth flour, white linseed flour.

On the pack, for preparation in HP, 250 ml (250 g) of water is indicated for 300 g of the mixture, and 230 is for the oven. I do not recommend increasing the water, because I saw that people with 250 ml of water make good bread. Now, if there is a bump again, then adjust.

By defect:
1) Bake good first bread from 300 gr mixture, and then gradually try to increase it to 500
2) water should be warm for kneading +30-35*... This is important for the yeast and for the swelling of the mixture. With cold water, large cracks and bumps are obtained.
3) Yeast You can also try reduce in half, that is - 1/2 tsp for 300 gr of mixture... There is also a good result.
4) On my own, I can suggest sprinkling the top with water from a spray bottle before baking, so that the crust remains moist longer and can stretch for longer with smaller cracks.
5) The bread must cool completely before slicing.

Be prepared for the top crust to be light, this is normal for baking in HP; flat or slightly convex - this is normal for gluten-free bread. But if the roof is collapsed or such as you did - these are defects, but they are "treated"

Although they write recipes on packs, everyone still has to adapt to their own conditions: temperature, water, yeast.

Please, next time show the view of the loaf and the cut - it is very important for the analysis of the reasons it worked / failed.

[timcha]

pay attention to the manufacturer's degrees - 37 degrees. That is, the water at the time of kneading should be 37 degrees, this is necessary for swelling of starch, and intensive work of yeast.

Lena, the manufacturer says on the packaging: 37 * for diluting yeast with water, that is - 37 * for activating yeast. There is nothing further about the water temperature, even the banal "room T or from the tap" is not indicated. Judging by the forum, where I read and looked about pastries from this mixture, even the manufacturer is not aware of the "whole kitchen" with starch and yeast. Of course, you need to read more, but the first impression is that there is "poking a finger into the sky" and only on the basis of practical results they draw conclusions, that is, "after." not "before".

At 20 degrees, you will look like a wet dough, and then it hardens kaaak when heated.

But perhaps this is exactly what happened. After all, the demonstrated loaf looks hardened, but in the same place the yeast was pulled out, where it has not yet baked.

First mix the yeast with the mixture, and do not throw it directly into the water. And everything should work out.

I would also pour the yeast into the mixture, and not into the dispenser and not just like that, and sift it together several times. Oxygenation is good for the cause.

If you want to reduce the amount of yeast, you need to lengthen the mode.

I'm not sure if the temperature balance is enough.

Therefore, without fear, you can have hot dough before kneading !!!

But this moment! The recipe on a pack contains as much as 1 tbsp of sugar per 300 g of the mixture and 1 tsp of yeast. Yeast works more fun with sugar. Then yeast reduction is possible.

All this must be checked in practice. You need to bake with temperature changes and yeast filling, and then you should be guided by the result. I am still for such a course of action to fit everything under the machine, observing the consistency and rise in the process, otherwise you can just bake in the oven, and put the HP in the closet or sell

The manufacturer's recipe was not followed in full. The manufacturer did not write the subtleties for baking starch mixtures ... The result - we've all seen

timcha, Lena explained to us about starch, about yeast ... we chewed it all up ... now your move is baking with changes and a report So together we will bring your bread to the desired
For completeness of the "picture", now I will run it into idle mode and unsubscribe in order to already know exactly what the stove is doing and what we should do

[mucus-forming]

Yeast is not used in muffins or starchy cookies, because there is nothing to keep the gas from the yeast in them

To do this, in gluten-free mixtures and use gums either mucus-forming... In the mixture under discussion - this is flaxseed flour and green buckwheat flour... It is this mucus that the yeast stretches, forming porosity.
What the flour producers have not thought of, the inventors of Panpasonik have thought out
Kneading is carried out at T on average + 37 *, proofing on average at 36 *

The gas will hold the mucus and will loosen and lift.

In such conditions, soda is usually used. This one just starts to work in parallel with heating and therefore its gases are stored. And in bread, all the accumulated gas will be pushed out, and only a small part of the yeast will remain, which will work like soda in a short moment of sharp heating on baking.

No, the baking soda will taste and taste like a cupcake. And with yeast, the taste and consistency change somehow in the direction of bread.

Yeast is not very fond of pure sugar. They grimace and gnaw it out of anguish... Especially such sugar does not cause violent activity in them.

Len, have you ever eaten green buckwheat? I sprouted and made flour, and it tastes tender, more neutral than steamed / fried Soviet flour. When it comes into contact with water, it forms a LOT of mucus.

no ... I have absolutely no business with gluten. Therefore, besides the fact that gum is just like gluten and eggs are also a gluten substitute - really bad, I don't know at all.
Therefore, I look stupidly at the composition of the mixture and try to understand how it is possible to keep the gas there, on what conditions. The mucus should be firm. Starch is dense. We generally use it in teapots as a very tight shell. Simply swollen starch is definitely more permeable.
At the same time, there is a lot of it in the mixture, therefore, the bread should be very thickened on baking.
The role of mucus in the mixture - I cannot fully appreciate. There are few infa in the internet, but in reality I did not see them. I don't know how permeable they are at what temperatures.
But look ... let's say good quality mucus can be even at low temperatures. But starch at low temperatures is deceptively liquid. That is, at low temperatures, it is more difficult to guess the consistency, is it?
In any case, hot fermentation will be better, UNLESS it degrades the quality of any of the mucus.For flaxseed flour - this will only make the jelly tightness better, but what is there for buckwheat ... fig knows. Look at the strength of buckwheat jelly with and without heating.

[Mode 14: "Gluten Free"]

Done pro mode in HP 2512 ! All temperature measurements were taken at the bottom of the bucket using a digital kitchen thermometer and a baking oven.

Mode 14: "Gluten Free",
The size is not set (in the instructions there are recipes for 500 g of the mixture), but in fact people even bake from 300 tons normally.
the crust is possible medium and fried.
Kneading: 15-20 min.
proofing: 40-45 min.
Baking: 50-55 min.

I exposed medium crust... The kitchen was + 20 *.
Kneading: Mix for 2 minutes without heating, as is the T in the kitchen.
Pause - at the 3rd minute - the yeast dispenser worked.
Further kneading at + 37 *. Fixed maximum 37.9 *.
Proofing the first 10 minutes on average + 39 *, to the end on average + 36 *.
Bakery products Heated and baked for 15 minutes at + 140 *. Until the end = 150 *.

Now it is clear why such a long pastry - T is not high. The manufacturer recommends baking in the oven at 180 * - 25-30 minutes.

Well? what happened? did you take warm water or not? what consistency did you make?

How does it all swell there? write in more detail all the details

On the pack, for cooking in HP, 250 ml (250 g) of water is indicated for 300 g of the mixture, and 230 is for the oven.

hmm, I wonder if mine is a little different

[Natalie and Timcha]

Hi, Natalie and Timcha, I remove my previous posts, because there are completely wrong thoughts.
I studied the properties of dietary fiber, which in gluten-free formulas plays the role of gluten in gluten-free bread.

So the first thing I found out. How not to beat the pasteurized, swollen starch - this is something heavy and shapeless - nothing will help. Trying to raise the starch with yeast is dead.
To prevent starch from turning into a solid lump on baked goods, a tougher frame is needed.
The scaffold is played by gluten or insoluble (usually) dietary fiber.

These dietary fibers swell in water and form a 3D structure. They bind water by adsorption according to the principle of capillary phenomena. As a rule, they are able to absorb water three times their weight.
which means adsorptive - this means that gluten binds water chemically more rigidly, the fibers will release water easier.
When gluten-free bread is baked, the gluten gradually thickens, releasing water, which the starch gradually eats. At the same time, there is less water than it is able to absorb and partial gelatinization of starch occurs.
Here it is important that: we immediately see when there is more water in the dough than gluten can absorb, and then this excess water is absorbed by starch, makes the bread heavier and gluten cannot withstand it - roof failures.

It's almost the same in gluten-free bread. When heated, the fibers partially give up water, and more readily than gluten and starch, they begin to gelatinize even faster without delay.
That is why they do not particularly high temperatures on baking, so that the release of water goes as evenly and gradually as possible, and so that part of the water remains in the fibers themselves.
Now, if only the water that was in the fibers is given, then the starch will receive it in dosage and the fibers - the frame will withstand the weight of the swollen starch. But if we make the dough too wet, if there is more water than the frame - the fibers - can absorb, it turns out that the starch will crush the bread.
At the same time, it is the fibers that store air and water when mixing, it is in the fibers that the gas from the yeast is contained. Complete analogy with gluten in yeast bread.

So ... in the case of gluten-free bread, oddly enough, excess water is more harmful than lack of water.

I am reconsidering the situation in the photo literally diametrically. It seems to me that there was surplus water. Too much free water. When heated, this caused an intense swelling of heavy starch and the bread collapsed under its weight, the fibers did not hold their shape. At the same time, the gas from the yeast from the fibers was displaced by the oxidized starch, as a very heavy substance.

However, I keep the conclusions on the warm kneading of the dough.
Because fiber swelling may or may not be temperature dependent. It does not depend on gum; on flax - the warmer, the better the visible swells. In a warm version, for example for flaxseed flour, it is easier not to confuse swelling with a simple solution. And our task is not to pour water, Moistened the mixture to a dense jelly and enough.

This is how I now see processes in gluten-free baked goods.
My conclusions are as follows: a very warm kneading with a dough temperature at the end of kneading of 37 degrees (up to 40 degrees, so as not to kill the yeast) in any case will not harm, but it may be much more useful than cold, due to a more visual observation of the state of the mixture.
And the consistency of the mixture is better stronger than thinner. Sour cream, thick jelly. That there was no free water.
After kneading, good mixing is needed with air entrapment into the fibers, this will give good porosity, because the yeast expands during operation only the previously captured air bubbles.
The yeast must be mixed in the mixture, avoiding direct contact with water.

The mode for gluten-free bread should be selected depending on the amount of yeast. We want less .. let it wander longer. We want it rather - the mode is hotter. Only the intensity of the baking is important. Too much heat can ruin the bread, why? already indicated above.

Criticize.

Criticize.

I have a second gluten-free in HP, it will be ready in about 1:20. But I will be able to compare and describe only tomorrow. Sori

hmm, I wonder if mine is a little different

Yes, interesting. Maybe the mixtures have a different composition ... maybe they are still experimenting and working out ...

[Natasha]

Natasha, Timchi's logic is more correct. Excess moisture is the worst thing. In the oven, excess moisture can evaporate, and in HP it will ruin the bread. The starch will take it and the khan's bread.

[Lena]

Lena, I stretched out yesterday and did not upload a photo, but today my tablet left for repairs, all the photos are there, Memori did not think to pull out the card.

One thing I can say for sure: a lot depends on the mixture, you need to work with each mixture taking into account its composition and, accordingly, the features concerning this.
The dough should not increase more than 2 times, does not withstand when heated. Better is an increase of 1.5 times and at the beginning of baking it will increase a little more.

Even on packages it seems like with the same mixture - the recipes are different. And what is inside, only two know - God and the manufacturer. You can write anything on the package, as well as NOT add it.

You need to take a specific mixture and work out its preparation in specific conditions. Otherwise - a finger to the sky. I shifted starch - one thing, shifted mucus-forming ones - another, shifted oils - third, did not report - ...

[Natasha]

Natasha... But you see. I'm at Timchi there is generally an excess of water.
According to my reasoning in gluten-free bread, the processes should be very different. And the effect of the explosion of a head of bread is not associated with a lack, but with an excess of moisture, as opposed to gluten-free bread.

The mixtures will vary in composition, but we do not have a clear picture at all of how these individual gluten-free ingredients affect the result.

I made assumptions on mixing temperatures and so on. But this is just a theory.

There is a complete information gap for gluten-free

[1.]

Natasha. But you see. Now Timchi seems to me to have an excess of water.

Lena, even if there is less water, the bun does not collect there, because there is no ... gluten or rubber substitute, and the mucus does not hold the mixture in order to twist it into a bun. So the example forum recipe from a ready-made mixture is not an option. Each mixture has its own composition and balance, which means that the difference can be +/- abyss.

Well? what happened? did you take warm water or not? what consistency did you make?

How does it all swell there? write in more detail all the details

I baked 2. I needed another one, but I ran out of rice flour.
I apologize for the photo, I took pictures at different times of the day: the first at sunset, the rest at night with a flash, so the color in all photos is distorted.

1. Prepared the mixture:

1 tbsp green buckwheat flour (ground in a coffee grinder)
2/3 cup rice flour
1 tbsp amaranth seeds (ground in a coffee grinder)
2 tablespoons flaxseed (ground in a coffee grinder)
2 tablespoons of corn, potato and tapioca starches.

+ to complete recipe
1 tsp salt
1 tablespoon sugar
1 tsp dry fast-acting yeast
1 tablespoon vegetable oil (I have olive oil)
250 ml of water.

As a result, the dough turned out like clay, did not want to mix at all. I added water, added more, more ... I added about 50 ml in total.
Here in the process and at the end of the batch



The dough remained with this mixed hole, it didn't even spread. I somehow leveled it with a spatula and left it for proofing. The proofing time is over, but the dough has not even risen by half. Turned off, turned on warm proofing for 40 minutes. A little more rose. But I didn't wait any longer - I turned on baking like in the oven and baked it, I don't remember how long, I didn't write it down

this is the top crust.

Whatever it was, but the taste, in principle, was good, my daughters and I gladly ate fresh buckwheat-rice bread.

2.
I changed the mixture, took 1 tbsp of rice flour and 2/3 buckwheat, the rest as in the first.
According to the recipe, I did not add oil, since freshly ground flaxseed contains about 48% flaxseed oil. Therefore, I took it into account as 1 tbsp of flaxseed flour + 1 tbsp of flaxseed oil. Water poured in 300 ml.
At the end of kneading, the dough leveled



This is overstretching within the program, the dough has increased 2.5 times, which is a LOT



I did not climb and did not correct anything, I wanted to see a concrete result under such conditions. Well I got it



The first bread tasted better !!!
There was not enough water for the first mixture, although in general there was as much of it as for the second - this is an indicator of how important the composition of the mixture and the density of the dough are.
The second bread had too much water for its mixture, and therefore the dough rose too much and collapsed when heated.

My First Gluten Free Bread at Panaconic 2512