Dentist
It is very interesting to know the opinion of everyone (especially since a serious dispute broke out).
DuDyuka_Kiev
answered - the right detail ...

Although I myself do without a window, in view of the peculiarities of the purchased stove.

If I try the recipe for the first time, then during the first batch I peep ... In principle, it is not reflected in the final result.
If the recipe is proven, then I don’t go to the stove at all ...
Aglo
Dentist
Excuse me, I got in here too.
I would like to suggest looking at the window from which side.
I noticed that when my women (mother, wife, mother-in-law) bake pies in the oven (three different plates), the pies in the back of the oven ripen earlier than those at the window.
Naturally, the size of the window of the HP is smaller than that of the oven and the effect, respectively, is also, but it is there.
Tan-yana
Maybe, after all, something in the plates? Or you often open the oven while baking.
pies in the back of the oven ripen earlier than those at the window
I have no such effect.
Aglo
Quote: Tan-yana

Or you often open the oven while baking.
Opening the oven while baking is the strictest taboo. My ladies know that.
Plates, all as one, are domestic, but two are not more than 5 years old.
But I'm glad for you and your oven.
Ivan
The window is a very handy detail.
Through the window, you can check how well the dough has risen.
Sometimes, due to weather conditions or with additional additives, ingredients (sometimes an accidental violation of the measure of the yeast / flour / ...), the dough can rise strongly - above the norm and stick to the lid, which is easy to fix, open enough and touch the top of the dough with your finger and it will sit down a little. It is also easy to visually determine the quality of the batch, and the quality of the batch and the removal of a smooth, clean ball, clean walls of the bucket is an engineering quality, the correct design of the bucket and mixer.
Ivan
Quote: Aglo

Dentist
Excuse me, I got in here too.
I would like to suggest looking at the window from which side.
I noticed that when my women (mother, wife, mother-in-law) bake pies in the oven (three different plates), the pies in the back of the oven ripen earlier than those at the window.
Naturally, the size of the window of the HP is smaller than that of the oven and the effect, respectively, is also, but it is there.

At least three or ten plates,
If the quality of the oven insulation is not very good and also if the quality of the door insulation is multilayer and the rubber seal around the door (some simply do not have it) is not of high quality, then there will always be a baking result, as in your case, so that it is not the window that is to blame, but the design and quality.
Olga
I believe that the window is needed. You need to control the dough. No matter how smart the technique is, it can't do anything without us. And you need to look after.
Exhumer
Although my experience is not great, I believe that the window is convenient, at least. On the other hand, it's nice that the whole process is under control.
Korata
If you can see anything in it, then of course you need it. I constantly look into mine - and I have to open it. For some reason, Panasonic did not make it ...
Ivan
Quote: Korata

If you can see anything in it, then of course you need it. I constantly look into mine - and I have to open it. For some reason, Panasonic did not make it ...
But he could have done it and it would have attracted marketing, BUT Panas did not, it seems to me, to hide the mixing defects ...
Anastasia
Quote: Ivan

But I could have done it and it would have attracted marketing, BUT Panas did not, it seems to me, to hide mixing defects ...

I have a Panasonic without a window for quite a long time - more than 1.5 years - I have never noticed any kneading defects behind it.
She replied that I do not need a window, because.I adhere to the principle - do not interfere with the mechanism to work. I put in the ingredients, installed the program and forgot about the mechanism until the beep of readiness.
Quote: Ivan

At least three or ten plates,
If the quality of the oven insulation is not very good, and also if the quality of the door insulation is multilayer and the rubber seal around the door (some simply do not have it) is not of high quality, then there will always be a baking result as in your case, so that it is not the window that is to blame, but the design and quality.

I do not think that my Bosch HSS 862 KEU stove has poor insulation and a rubber seal, but if you do not turn on convection (and this is nothing more than a uniform blowing of hot air throughout the entire oven), then there is also such an effect - the window the product is fried less than deep. I think that convection was invented for this, so that stoves, even high-quality ones, eliminate this shortcoming and the products are cooked evenly throughout the entire volume of the oven.
Aglo
Quote: Ivan

But I could have done it and it would have attracted marketing, BUT Panas did not, it seems to me, to hide mixing defects ...

Mixing defects from a person, not from a machine.

Hardly anyone would undertake to assert that the heat losses through a hole covered with a thin plastic plate are less than or equal to the losses through a sandwich: inner lid - air gap - outer lid. It's still an engineering calculation.
Less heat losses and, as a result, a more even distribution of temperature throughout the volume - this is what attracts - marketing works.
A piece of metal and plastic corresponding to the size of the window costs money, and the manufacturers of stoves with a window save them, it is no coincidence that even the cheapest windows have. But the consumer does not notice or does not want to notice that they have saved on it, as they do not notice or do not want to notice that, for example, they have cheated or weighed (saved on it) in the market.
Dentist
Quote: Aglo

Hardly anyone would undertake to assert that the heat losses through a hole covered with a thin plastic plate are less than or equal to the losses through a sandwich: inner lid - air gap - outer lid. It's still an engineering calculation.
Less heat losses and, as a result, a more even distribution of temperature throughout the volume - this is what attracts - marketing works.
A piece of metal and plastic corresponding to the size of the window costs money, and the manufacturers of stoves with a window save them, it is no coincidence that even the cheapest windows have. But the consumer does not notice or does not want to notice that they have saved on it, as they do not notice or do not want to notice that, for example, they have cheated or weighed (saved on it) in the market.

And why, then, do you keep silent about the dispenser, which opens and the same hole remains, covered with thin plastic? Is this also a defect? But for this defect, Panasonic takes extra money. I also know that the body of almost all stoves heats up, which leads to heat leakage. I read that only DeLonghi's body does not heat up, so only there will be uniform baking? It seems to me that the manufacturer should take into account all these nuances. And, based on my own experience, I declare: at LG, bread is always evenly baked and evenly toasted. The crust is beautiful and tasty. And in Panas, sometimes bread is burnt on the sides, and the crust is very tough.
Korata
Quote: Anastasia

She replied that I do not need the window, because I adhere to the principle - do not interfere with the mechanism to work. I put in the ingredients, installed the program and forgot about the mechanism until the beep of readiness.

When experimenting, you sometimes need to control the process. Or, just like yesterday, the recipe was a little confused, and if it weren't for the control during the batch, you would have to throw everything out. And so - we noticed that the dough is thin and immediately made an adjustment.

If we were 100% sure that all the components are good, then of course we don't have to look. And if you are changing flour or yeast .. or the recipe is for the first time, then it is better to spy ..)
Anastasia
Quote: Korata

When experimenting, you sometimes need to control the process. Or, just like yesterday, the recipe was a little confused, and if it weren't for the control during the batch, you would have to throw everything out. And so - we noticed that the dough is thin and immediately made an adjustment.
If we were 100% sure that all the components are good, then of course we don't have to look. And if you are changing flour or yeast .. or the recipe is for the first time, then it is better to spy ..)

I simply answered how it happens for me and why I personally do without a window. That's all. It works for me. Others may have things differently, so I don't insist. I do without control, well, that's how it worked out for me. So, to each his own. My answer was only to justify my vote in the poll.
And my life experience, on the contrary, tells me that when you are experimenting, it is better not to open the stove in order to be sure that the process was not disturbed, and the failure, if it suddenly happens, befell because of something else. It's easier for me.
Aglo
Quote: Dentist

And why, then, do you keep silent about the dispenser, which opens and the same hole remains, covered with thin plastic? Is this also a defect? But for this defect, Panasonic takes extra money. I also know that the body of almost all stoves heats up, which leads to heat leakage. I read that only DeLonghi's body does not heat up, so only there will be uniform baking? It seems to me that the manufacturer should take into account all these nuances. And, based on my own experience, I declare: at LG, bread is always evenly baked and evenly toasted. The crust is beautiful and tasty. And in Panas, sometimes bread is burnt on the sides, and the crust is very tough.

The dispenser is still closed most of the time, and losses at this time through it are minimal. This is again a sandwich: an air flap - a gap - a dispenser lid.

Here I am writing and thinking, what are we arguing about?
Is there a choice? There is. Does the presence or absence of a window radically affect the quality of baked goods? It looks like no.
Is the presence or absence of a window the determining factor when choosing for the majority of future owners of bread makers? It seems not, because only one manufacturer offers a stove without a window (at least in Russia).
That is, we are talking about nuances. Any engineering solution is a set of compromises - winning in one, losing in another.
serg
I totally agree with Aglo. The window is a nuance, an additional convenience, on my stove, apparently due to the design features, it does not affect the heat loss in any way. For beginners, an undoubtedly useful nuance, for those who program their recipes, it is an absolutely necessary convenience, interrupting the importance of heat loss, if there were any (in fact, this factor, I think, is slightly contrived for determining the quality of the stove as a whole, we are not discussing a steam boiler for an intercontinental rocket) ... A compromise for the developer, in this case, can be considered an increase in the cost of additional amenities with the intention to increase the client base through competitive advantages. Naturally, a developer with a very well-known brand has the opportunity to make more profit by investing not in additional convenience for the client, but in marketing. And this is also done on the basis of a compromise - invest less, get more.
Lvovna
I don’t know how I would have lived without a window; it’s good that the stove with a window was caught. The lantern now always lies next to the bread maker. How can you not follow the test? You should always know what it does. This is probably why I have never baked bread with a delay - I'm afraid to loosen control
Ivan
Quote: Anastasia

I have a Panasonic without a window for quite a long time - more than 1.5 years - I have never noticed any kneading defects behind it.
She replied that I do not need the window, because I adhere to the principle - do not interfere with the mechanism to work. I put in the ingredients, installed the program and forgot about the mechanism until the beep of readiness.
I do not think that my Bosch HSS 862 KEU stove has poor insulation and a rubber seal, but if you do not turn on convection (and this is nothing more than a uniform blowing of hot air throughout the entire oven), then there is also such an effect - the window the product is fried less than deep. I think that convection was invented for this, so that stoves, even high-quality ones, eliminate this shortcoming and the products are cooked evenly throughout the entire volume of the oven.

Do not confuse a gas oven and an electric oven.
In gas, no forced convection is done - it is unnecessary, since the gas flame itself creates air movement - convection. And in an electric oven, a fan is definitely needed, since there is no natural mixing of the air flow, etc. ...
Anastasia
Quote: Ivan


Do not confuse a gas oven and an electric oven.
In gas, no forced convection is done - it is unnecessary, since the gas flame itself creates air movement - convection. And in an electric oven, a fan is definitely needed, since there is no natural mixing of the air flow, etc. ...

I don't seem to confuse anything, but where did you mention earlier that you are talking about a gas oven? I thought that in your previous posts you spoke about the electric oven ...
And then, as it seemed to me, according to the laws of physics, it does not matter what the air is heated by, what source, but always warm air tends upward as lighter, and cold air downward and natural circulation occurs in any oven. Just with a fan is faster.
Ivan
Quote: Aglo

Mixing defects from a person, not from a machine.

Hardly anyone would undertake to assert that the heat losses through a hole covered with a thin plastic plate are less than or equal to the losses through a sandwich: inner lid - air gap - outer lid. It's still an engineering calculation.
Less heat losses and, as a result, a more even distribution of temperature throughout the volume - this is what attracts - marketing works.
A piece of metal and plastic corresponding to the size of the window cost money, and the manufacturers of stoves with a window save them, it is no coincidence that even the cheapest windows have. But the consumer does not notice or does not want to notice that they have saved on it, as they do not notice or do not want to notice that, for example, they have cheated or weighed (saved on it) in the market.

It doesn't make sense to save metal! If you calculate that the window is more expensive - it is to separately prepare the glass purchase-order / cutting / processing, then the manufacture of the frame - inserts for the glass, all this is assembled by the collector - all this is much more expensive than, as you said, saving a small piece of internal tin
In addition to holes, they are often made on purpose, for example, like Hitachi's - there is a small through grate near the window - for steam to escape during baking, - you yourself probably notice how much condensation water around the lid when baking, or does it drain into your body where are the holes around the perimeter?
As you know, all gas / electric ovens on the back wall upward have a rather large opening for steam outlet. The one on the cover of the stove with special holes for the release of steam is not for beauty ..
And bakes Hitachi with such a window and holes on the lid - Excellent.
Aglo
Quote: Ivan

It doesn't make sense to save metal! If you calculate that the window is more expensive - it is to separately prepare the glass purchase-order / cutting / processing, then the manufacture of the frame - inserts for the glass, all this is assembled by the collector - all this is much more expensive than, as you said, saving a small piece of internal tin.
In fact, everything is simpler - pay attention there stamping and casting. The purchase-order of materials, as well as the assembly operation, are present in the manufacture of any cover.
And it is not a piece of tin that is saved, but a non-ferrous metal that is not cheap.

you yourself probably notice how much condensation water around the lid during baking, or does it drain into your body where the holes are around the perimeter?
The small through-grate in my Panasonic is the framing of the steam valve.I did not see condensation water around the lid during baking, I also did not notice that something was flowing somewhere - everything was dry.
Elena Bo
I totally agree with Aglo. There is no condensation or moisture in Panasonic. Everything is always dry.
Ivan
I disagree.
You just didn’t really know where and when to watch this condensation. If there was an opportunity, I would show this condensate, but at least on any bread machine and Panas as well.
I also disagree with the window about saving. There is very little even non-ferrous metal. This is an ordinary "black" sheet - just galvanized, all this is worth a little
Here's the real savings - this is the Panasonic 255. So they made the whole body and plastic, and the predecessor 253 had a metal body.
Aglo
Quote: Ivan

I disagree.
You just didn’t really know where and when to watch this condensation. If there was an opportunity, I would show this condensate, but at least on any bread machine and Panas as well.
Became interesting. In what places to watch, at what time and where does it go later? Why can't I see him, wiping the oven from flour dust at the end of baking?

This is an ordinary "black" sheet - just galvanized
Have you ever seen a metal (not enameled) bucket? This is galvanized metal, it is definitely not inside the stove. Something didn’t occur to me to attach a magnet.
But be that as it may, a piece of metal is generally more expensive than a piece of plastic and your thought is moving in the right direction:
Here's the real savings - this is the Panasonic 255. So they generally made the whole body and plastic.
Only now we are accustomed to noticing large savings, and the "bourgeois" have not shunned savings in small for a long time, making a good profit on the series.

belk @
With my minimal experience in baking, I believe that a window is necessary. In any case, I often use it.
Pakat
I will answer as an engineer with many years of experience and as a user of two different bread machines.
The stoves are different, even the same models have design and technological features. The viewing window, in combination with the switched on illumination, is an advantage of the stove, only if it is made using technology that excludes heat loss from above.
This is an illuminator technology, in 2-3 layers of glass, with an air gap between the layers, sealed with food grade heat-resistant rubber or
food grade silicone. But such a window is expensive, so most bread makers have thin glass with a silicone sleeve. This window is a source of heat loss and a light crust of bread on top.
Panasonic went the other way, completely abandoned the viewing window, which solved many problems. And you can spy on the bun and control the rise of the dough by opening the oven lid. In the kneading mode, an open lid does not affect its quality, and when lifting, short-term opening of the lid is not critical for the dough.
Now I have a programmable bread maker, I decided to completely lose heat from above, I closed the window with several layers of food foil and put
food grade stainless steel plate, there is a description on the website.
Over time, if there is a desire, I can make a porthole window with a converted backlight. The backlight, now, turns on only when the stove cover is open.
I ask those who have no problems with a super crust not to write, they say I'm fine, I'm happy for you, and this information is for those who have problems with a pale crust and need a window to answer, or not ...
Bread Pete
Quote: Packet link = topic = 150.0 date = 1231527744

But such a window is expensive, so most bread makers have thin glass with a silicone sleeve. This window is a source of heat loss and a light crust of bread on top.
Panasonic went the other way, completely abandoned the viewing window, which solved many problems.

I used to have an LG with a window, and so. There was no top crust at all. What came out from above did not attract the title of a crust. And I set the "darkness" to the maximum. I did not think of isolating with foil then, but this site did not exist in nature yet

My current Panas is heaven and earth compared to the previous ski in terms of baking quality in general and top crust in particular.
belk @
Quote: Packet link = topic = 150.0 date = 1231527744

I ask those who have no problems with a super crust not to write, they say I'm fine, I'm happy for you, and this information is for those who have problems with a pale crust and need a window to answer, or not ...

Thanks for the answer, somehow I did not think that the upper light crust is due to heat loss. I am not an engineer.
Anuta71
I have a Panasonic 255, only 2 months. When I was choosing a stove and hadn’t read this wonderful forum yet, it’s as terrible as I wanted a stove with a window, well, it seemed so important to me, I was led to it as an aboriginal on the minibuses. Then I thought, thought, read, compared, and we bought me Panas.
Well, what can I say, this window is not needed (IMHO). I need to see something, I opened it and looked. And if the recipe is not new, then I put it all down and came at a signal and took out the bread. Is there really someone standing right in front of the window and admiring the process? After all, for a short time, I came up and looked in, even if in the process of lifting the lid, nothing terrible will happen. I somehow even opened it in the baking process (when the red curl was baked) - nothing bad happened.
Boo Boo
When mixing, you can open the lid, and then nafig open it.
Mams
My old Ski had a window. When the stove started to knead, it fogged up with warm water. After a couple of years of constant use, the glass was trite smoked from baking. I still had to open the lid to control the batch. So, even with a window or without, the roof was opened anyway. And, by the way, big bread was baked with a white roof, it lacked the warmth from the shade.
iren_adler
I like the window in my stove. It really helps to keep track of the kolobok without lifting the lid unnecessarily. And the crust of my bread of any height is baked well, in accordance with the exposed color. But I don’t think that the window is the most necessary attribute of the stove. The main quality of baked bread
knm
my HP also has a window and I like to follow the process. I think that the window is a convenient thing
Rem
Is it necessary or not? Let every beginner answer this question in a year and compare it with his answer now. The answer will surprise you in a year. Without a window, there is bread and quality, and everything is fine. Do not believe me, glue it on 3-4 pastries, and compare. More precisely, you can see everything by opening the lid
tatulja12
I do not suffer from the absence of a window. Anyway, if you add something, you will have to open the lid. Or maybe I answer like this, because he is not there?
shadow
I have a window in my bread maker, it's so funny when my husband runs all the time and turns on the light to see what's going on
Rina
Pakat very accurately determined whether a window is needed or not, what can be called a window, and what is the owner's headache. All other things being equal, I myself would choose a stove without a window. In my experience: opening the lid does not affect the quality of the kneading (sometimes I just leave the lid open during the kneading, it does not affect the dough, but I have a warm enough kitchen and the stove is not in a draft), just as short-term openings during lifting and even while baking. I repeat once again - short-term, that is, "opened, took a look, assessed the situation and closed", no admiration for the process of proofing and baking. By the way, when kneading yeast dough by hand, with a mixer or a combine, do we create any special conditions for the dough?

So, the window (not a headache!) Is a thing necessary for the especially curious, for the often doubting and for meditation.
kisoft
I have HP relatively recently, but for the initial "training", I think the thing is useful. Although now I almost never look out the window, since I keep the lid open when mixing, if you need to keep an eye on the kolobok, there is nothing wrong with that. I also sometimes open the lid with the same batch. Since my bread is 750 g in total, I did not notice the white "roof".
Suslya
And I think that the window is a necessary thing! So I love to see how the kneading is going, how the bread rises and the daughter looks so funny, talks to the bread, informs in a businesslike way how she got up, good or not.
The roof has recently become light, although at first it was rosy. I tried to close the window with foil, I did not feel the difference, the same light.
Pakat
Suslya , close the window, the foil must be folded 6-8 times, from the inside, so that it does not touch the glass, the gap between the glass and the foil must be at least 2-3 millimeters.
A common mistake is that the foil is pressed against the glass, increasing heat loss ...
macaroni
And here is my window on x. for some reason it constantly fogs up (Moulinex 5004) and it is generally not convenient to follow the batch, but how it has risen is still possible.
Gin
The window is good! When it's good You can spy on the kolobok and the rise without disturbing the temperature inside.
And with my window there was such a problem ...
https://Mcooker-en.icdself.com/in...=1596.0
9oksana9
The window is a necessary addition! I have the simplest Kenwood bread maker but with a window, thanks to him I can safely cook my own bread recipes and control the cooking process without breaking the temperature regime.
It seems to me that the presence of a window is mandatory for those who are not afraid and like to experiment with bread)
xxxXo3xxx
The window is necessary, it is more convenient with it.
Boo Boo
Quote: 9oksana9

thanks to him, I can safely cook my own bread recipes and control the cooking process without disturbing the temperature regime.
Well, if something went wrong, you still have to open the lid and break the temperature regime.
Celestine
I have a window, but I practically don't use it, I need a flashlight in addition to it
Summer resident
Opening the bread maker during kneading does not violate the temperature regime.
Rina
And I wonder how our mothers-grandmothers-great-grandmothers withstood this very temperature regime? Indeed, according to many, yeast dough is terribly afraid if it blows a little colder in the air

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