Hairpin
I can't decide which is better to use in the dough - margarine or butter. Elena Bo and Andreevna (if I'm not mistaken) put in margarine ... But butter is better ... And vegetable oil is also healthy ...
I would be grateful for advice, and even more so for justification. Justifications like "Mom did this, and I do the same" - are accepted and justification is !!!

The use of fats in baking

aynat
Hairpin, let me answer. I never put margarine anywhere (for the last 5 years, maybe more). If I had margarine according to the recipe (well, for a chicken coaster, for example), now I always put butter.
Lenusya
moved my answer here
In baking I use a spread (butter-vegetable), vegetable, butter. I treat margarine with prejudice and never use it anywhere.

Spread discussed here https://Mcooker-en.icdself.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=7919.0
shade
Peace be with you bakers!
of course an interesting question
for potato I use sunflower as I fry onion on it
for Mediterranean or with herbs olive \ taste \
for milk cream
in wheat, I like margarine donut
I make rye with unrefined - it comes out more fragrant
but muffins or muffins according to the mood or creamy or crumpet
for some reason the spread did not take root, some kind of synthetic taste
although I may have taken the wrong one
Hairpin
I also put butter. I was a student - I used margarine, began to receive money, switched to butter ... Now I began to think. But Lenusya with a spread completely baffled me ... It's really vegetable ... Maybe it's really better than butter ...
Hairpin
I'll clarify, just in case. You can celebrate as much as you like, and change your voice too ...
Lenusya
Quote: Hairpin

Maybe it's really better than butter ...

of course, butter is better, but it costs two to two and a half times more than the spread.
And the spread (creamy vegetable) I use instead of margarine only in baked goods.
kolynusha
Quote: Hairpin

I also put butter. I was a student - I used margarine, began to receive money, switched to butter ... Now I began to think. But Lenusya with a spread completely baffled me ... It's really vegetable ... Maybe it's really better than butter ...

And when I was a student, I learned the technology of margarine production. And now I use only vegetable and butter. By the way, I don't use mayonnaise either. The spread is of plant origin, but in its production, vegetable oils and liquid oils of marine mammals were hydrogenated (obtained a solid structure by transforming fats) and added flavors, colors and antioxidants.
Ellka
I use only vegetable oils for bread, only butter for baking, and I never drown, but chop with a knife. The structure of the test is more like it
Fadeeva
I also thought butter was better. And she began to replace margarine with butter in all recipes. The pastries are tastier, but somehow heavier. Sometimes, when there is not enough butter and I added margarine, the baked goods became lighter and more airy. In short, I came to the conclusion that margarine, like vegetable oil, as well as mayonnaise, is essentially vegetable fat, and, in general, lightens the dough, makes it more porous, light, but dryish, and butter is animal fat and makes the dough is denser, but more rich and soft.
Now I use different options and combinations (butter + margarine, margarine, butter + mayonnaise, margarine + sour cream, sour cream + mayonnaise, butter, etc.), depending on the desired result.
For daily bread, for example, I prefer vegetable oils, for baking - butter, for shortcrust pastry - a combination of mayonnaise, sour cream, butter, vegetable oil.
And if you teach me how to start a topic, I'll give you an absolutely amazing shortbread dough recipe. Nobody, neither me nor my friends, ate a more delicious cake. It's just a masterpiece. (I hope I intrigued someone, actually the pie is good, but I do not know how to open the topic
Lenusya
According to GOST R 52100-2003, “Melted spreads and mixtures. General specifications. ”, Spreads are divided into three subtypes:

creamy vegetable contain more than 50% milk fat (closest to natural butter)
vegetable-creamy contain from 15 to 49% milk fat
vegetable-fatty do not contain milk fat (almost pure margarine)
The difference between a spread and margarine is that the use of hydrogenated fats is limited in spreads, while there is practically no such limitation in margarine.
In spreads, the content of trans isomers (a special form of fatty acids) should not exceed 8%. Consuming foods with high levels of trans isomers can damage the artery walls. They are practically not passed by the membranes of the brain. In European countries, for example, the content of these substances is regulated in the range from two to five percent.

Hairpin
Lenusya!
Did I understand correctly that hydrogenated fats and trans isomers are equivalent concepts?
lina
Creamy and vegetable. Margarine - I feel it, it interferes. In bread - only vegetable. Baking - creamy or creamy + vegetable. Sweet pastries are creamy (I won't eat an extra piece myself) I haven't bought a spread since the late nineties ... Maybe it makes sense to try?
Hairpin
In the recipe for Khrushchev's dough - margarine, Vienna dough - butter, The best sweet dough - either one or the other. It seems that the decisions were made based on the preferences of the authors.

And there is also a position that the option to remove from the diet not only creamy, margarine, spread, but also vegetable. I myself am against it. I believe this is the only source of Omegas. It is impossible without them.

I'll add a line to the poll about no vegetable ...
Oleg
I can't vote because I use a variety of fat supplements. Fadeeva-You are smart! correctly written, for different types of bakery products, different fats are needed. Through trial and error, everyone will find (in which product, what is better to add) that she (he) likes, and closer to the soul ...
Aunt Besya
For bread (wheat, rye-wheat), only olive, for sweet pastries - butter + vegetable, sometimes only vegetable (depending on baking) I haven't bought a spread for 15 years, margarine is about the same. In the early 90s, I remember actively buying Voimix, and then completely switched to butter. Sometimes I use overheated
Lenusya
Hairpin, you embarrassed me, I am not an expert in this matter
Hydrogenation of fats occurs during the production of any margarine (salomas are obtained - the basis of margarine), and the content of tranisomers is regulated by technol. process (TU, OST, etc.),
IMHO (my understanding of the question)
you can search on the Internet
julifera
Margarine is categorically AGAINST!

(regardless of the taste and quality of the products obtained on it)

To put it simply, its fats are not absorbed by the body,
but only harm and accumulate in the body, they climb out the wrong side.

My son and I wrote a paper on fats a couple of years ago, and here's a short theory on this topic:

1. Saturated fat.

These are basically all animal refractory fats, which remain solid at room temperature.
Such fats are absorbed much worse and quickly accumulate in excess in the corresponding depots of the body (subcutaneous fatty tissue, peritoneum, internal organs), and also increase the amount of cholesterol.

However, you should not completely avoid animal fats, the main source of cholesterol. The fact is that cholesterol is necessary in the body for the synthesis of many hormones. A good source of animal fat is medium-fat milk, as well as light oils, which contain 25-40% animal fat.

2. Unsaturated and 3. polyUNsaturated fats

(essential fatty acids for the body, such as OMEGA-3 and OMEGA-6)

- fats with a high content of lower unsaturated fatty acids (olive oil, peanut oil).

- fats with a relatively high content of higher unsaturated fatty acids (burdock, soybean, corn and sunflower oil).
4. Trans fats are a type of unsaturated fat.

Sunflower oil is converted into margarine by hydrogenation.

Consuming trans fats will bring a host of health problems.
Cancer, in particular, opens its arms amiably to lovers of margarine.
Trans fats are the biggest evil, and, ironically, this evil is always covered with sheep's clothing - many do not even suspect that they eat a huge amount of trans fats every day.
In purchased baked goods, not sunflower oil, but margarine is used and, as a rule, is far from the highest quality
In principle, there cannot be a useful trans fat (margarine), it is a product that is incompatible with health.
Lenusya
About margarine

🔗
julifera
Lenusya, good link!

From this link I am reading: The problem of trans fats

"Regular margarine contains a much higher proportion of so-called trans fats than the original vegetable oil ........

We should not forget about the possibility of contamination of the finished margarine with micro amounts of substances that make up the hydrogenation catalysts, and some petroleum products !!! ........ "

The real composition of margarines from our store shelves is very far from being healthy ....
vi_kon
Quote: Hairpin

Lenusya!
It seems to me that the financial factor is not the main one here ...

Then I don't understand at all what to discuss here. Margarine and spread are created precisely for the sake of economy.
And so combine butter and vegetable oil depending on the type of baking ... If the harm of 82% butter frightens you, take 72% (so-called peasant), it just has more moisture.
Admin

There is a topic on the forum

VEGETABLE OILS AND ANIMAL FATS
https://Mcooker-en.icdself.com/index.php@option=com_smf&topic=3414.0
Hairpin
There is information, and here is experience. I assumed that the majority of members of the forum use margarine and vegetable oil. And I use butter alone ... And I'm not alone !!!
LaraN
I use vegetable oil (sunflower) for baking wheat and rye bread. I don't like olive oil, I just bought it and started adding mustard oil.
I put creamy margarine in baked goods (dough for buns, recipe in the Moscow Buns theme). I tried butter, which is also good, but the taste is a little different, and finally settled on margarine.
I don't use spread in baking, there are too many additives.
Cake
Quote: Aunt Besya

himichka,But butter is not used in such a cake at all, only margarine? Some kind of prejudice - the word margarine makes my stomach ache
Aunt Besya, your stomach understands very well that margarine is poison. Especially the "Puff" type. This is the so-called "refractory" margarine made from solid fats. They were invented so that it could be layered at any temperature in the workshop and without holding in the refrigerator (to speed up the technological process). The melting temperature is 42 or 45 degrees (I forgot exactly) The puff from it is awesome, but what to do with the stomach, because the temperature there is not higher than 37 *, therefore it cannot melt this fat, it is difficult to split it. So he suffers. And you are with him. so take the oil better!
himichka
Cake, dear, as a chemist to a chemist, I want to say that you are categorically wrong about the "puff" margarine.
First: I deliberately rummaged in the internet, they write that its melting point, on the contrary, is lower.
Second: margarines are chemically processed (don't be alarmed) liquid vegetable oils.
Third: how does the breakdown of animal fats, including butter, take place? As our stomach carries them, they are refractory.
Fourth: if earlier margarine was praised in every possible way everywhere due to the lack of cholesterol in it, today it is also scolded because of the presence of so-called trans isomers that harm the same cardiovascular system.
With all of the above, I hate margarine and use it only for baking, because our butter is no longer butter, but God knows what, but it costs much more.
These are the pies. Not quite in the subject, so if necessary, I'll delete it later.
kanga
Khimichka, Well why not the topic? Napoleon is made either from butter or from margarine. So it is useful for us to find out all the points of view of specialists on these, frankly, not very digestible products. If the oil is homemade, then everything is clear. And if the store? And which of them is more harmful? Most believe it is margarine. Is this so?
Cake
himichka , I have to admit that I have a difficult relationship with chemistry and I'm frankly afraid to argue with you. Just those facts. which I have informed Aunt Bese , I was informed at seminars for pastry chefs by professional technologists. How can it be. what margarine for puff will melt at lower temperatures than other fats? And what then is its advantage? However, I copy from the site of sellers of these very fats. Catalog → Raw materials and semi-finished products for the confectionery industry → Raw materials for the preparation of baked semi-finished products → Margarines and fats for the preparation of semi-finished products → Romea Sfolya margarine
Margarine Romea Sfolia
Supplier - Italica
Refractory margarine is widely used in the production of all types of puff pastry. Margarine ROMEA SFOLYA is recommended for products made from non-yeast puff pastry. In addition, margarine does not require pre-freezing before use, and for ease of use, each block is divided into layers of 1 kg.

Ingredients: partially hydrogenated animal and vegetable fats and oils, water, emulsifier (lecithin), acidity regulator (citric acid), preservative (potassium sorbate), flavorings.

Organoleptic characteristics: solid at room temperature, plastic, with a pleasant taste and smell.


Physical and chemical characteristics:
for non-yeast

puff pastry

Mass fraction of fat (%)
min80

Moisture (%)
max 19.5

Melting point (° C)
40-42
Acidity (% oleic acid ")
max 0.35

Peroxide number (meq 02 / kg)
max 2.0

Rancidity (Kreis test)
negatively

Solid fat content (%):


10 ° C
52-62

20 ° C
37-47

30 ° C
19-27

35 ° C
10-18

Nutritional value per 100 g of product

Energy value (kcal)
720

(kJ)
2960

Fat (g)
80

Proteins (g)
0

Carbohydrates (g)
0


Packing: two cut 10 kg blocks, wrapped in parchment paper and placed in a cardboard box.

Shelf life: at least 12 months in a cool dry place (max 16-18 ° C) away from heat sources.



Now compare with metrics, for example. oils for deep fat.

Deep-frying oil Bonfrey
Supplier - Italica
BONFRI is a double fractionated refined palm oil, completely liquid at room temperature. It offers numerous advantages over conventional oils.

First of all, BONFRI oxidizes extremely slowly and, as a result, can be used more times.

It has a neutral taste and allows you to fry several types of food at the same time, without imparting extraneous odors to them.

Having a very high smoke point (200 / 230C), it avoids the usual problems when frying with vegetable oils.

Organoleptic characteristics: liquid at room temperature and has the appearance of a shiny, yellow-straw-colored liquid with a neutral taste, without foreign odors.

Physical and chemical characteristics:

Moisture (%)

Acidity (% oleic acid)

Peroxide number (meq O2 / kg)

Iodine number (g I2 / 100 g)

Smoke point (° C)
max 0.08

max 0.12

max 1.0

min 62

min 200-230


Solid Fat Index (%)

0 ° C

12 ° C

25 ° C
55-65

35-45

3-8

Packing: tin bucket 25 liters.

Shelf life: at least 12 months in a cool place (max 12 ° C) away from heat sources.

← Back

At a temperature of 25 * solid fat, only 3-8 percent. whereas for puff margarine at a temperature of 35 * = 10-18%

But for comparison, the characteristics of ordinary margarine:

Margarine Joya

Supplier - Italica
Ingredients: refined and partially hydrogenated vegetable fats and oils and animal fats, water, emulsifier (mono and diglycerides of fatty acids, lecithin), acidity regulator (citric acid), preservative (potassium sorbate), dye (beta-carotene), natural flavors.

Organoleptic characteristics: solid at room temperature, plastic, with a pleasant taste and smell of butter.

Physical and chemical characteristics:
JOYA

Mass fraction of fat (%)
min80

Moisture (%)
max 20.0

Melting point (° C)
31-35
Acidity (% oleic acid)
max 0.35

Peroxide number (meq 02 / kg)
max 2.0

Rancidity (Kreis test)

Solid fat content (%):
negatively

10 ° C
38-46

20 ° C
15-23

30 ° C
3-8

35 ° C
max 4
Energy value (kcal)
720

(kJ)
2960

Fat (g)
82

Proteins (g)
0

Carbohydrates (g)
0


Packing: 20 kg block. in a cardboard box with an inner food grade polyethylene bag.

Shelf life: at least 12 months in a cool dry place (max 16-18 ° C) away from heat sources.
Now I give an excerpt from the site 🔗

The nature of milk fat gives it a low melting point (25-30 ° C) and solidification (17-28 ° C), which contributes to its transition in the digestive tract to the most convenient liquid state for assimilation. This is one of the advantages of milk fat, therefore it is recommended for patients with functional disorders of the digestive organs, especially with diseases of the liver, gallbladder, and also for baby food.

himichkaas they say, "nothing personal", only facts. On my own behalf, I want to add that even if we agree with the statement that "now it's not butter, but only one margarine", then ordinary margarine is still more digestible than "puff". Basically. if you do not eat a puff every day, then the problem is easily solved with 2 Mezim tablets
himichka
Cake, cited data about our, not Italian .. margarine and what our producers write about it.
Well, they all lie, I do not know, strongly or not. Palm oil is actually solid at normal temperatures as far as I know. It is processed in our city. And here they write that deep-frying palm oil is liquid.
I once watched a program about how the so-called oils of the PAMA type are made, so this is generally vegetable oil, forcibly thickened and with all sorts of additives for taste and smell.
So we will delight ourselves with cakes based on butter or margarine, who suits what for health reasons and wallet.
Cake
himichka The "miracles" of today's technological wizards can only be amazed! They will make whatever you want solid liquid at room temperature and vice versa. We, as consumers, put SOMETHING in our mouths every time and wonder about the consequences.
Margarine is not Italian. it is simply made by Italica. The factories, as far as I know, are located near Moscow, the prices are quite "passable". I copied from this Lipetsk site 🔗
These margarines and oils are bought by all the manufacturers of confectioners and bakery known to me in the Lipetsk and, partially, in the Tambov regions. So these products are not exotic, we buy them in centners and use them every day. I have in stock "For shortcrust pastry" and "Table", for a puff I do not buy. I used to take natural liquid plasticine before. It’s unpleasant to work ... some kind of inanimate .... For half a year in the pantry lay a piece of parchment wrapped in it — it didn’t even get moldy!
It was in this company TriRmarket that I underwent training and seminars. There I learned about the properties and purposes of margarines and oils for industrial production.
After I found out, I make all homemade baked goods in sunflower or butter. I make creamy successfully myself
himichka
Cake, I also make butter myself for a long time, but it's a pity to spend on baking, we haven't got a cow yet. We sell margarine Sloyka, made in Zaporozhye, very good .., the composition contains vegetable fats and natural oils, it does not look like plasticine in any way. But native Odessa margarines are something, that's exactly ugly plasticine.
Aunt Besya
How sad and scary to live 🔗 Don't read your calculations ... Intuitively, I don't look at margarines. And yesterday I saw sour cream "Yanino 30%", read it on a pack, there is anything you like, just not cream and sourdough
If once a year I want to indulge in "Napoleon", I will splurge on butter for my beloved
Husky
Can you digest this heap of information at all? Completely confused !!
I have a question for you. Vegetable fat is sometimes used in cream recipes. (Sounds monstrous) I recently saw vegetable fat for deep fat. It is the same. Rather, I understand that these are different things, but maybe it is also suitable for a cream?
Cake
husky fat for deep fat will not go into cream
If the recipe is taken from some foreign source, then there may be an incorrect translation and it meant margarine (as a type of vegetable fat). There are a lot of margarines for cream, here you can choose:
🔗
himichka
Hmmm, two bogeymen started up on the forum ...
Ladies, there is a concept of "fat" - it's solid, basically it's all glycerides of animal origin. And there is the concept of "oil" - these are glycerides of vegetable origin, they are mostly liquid (palm oil looks like paraffin, it is solid). They differ in their structure and composition, oils contain so-called polyunsaturated organic acids - oleic, linoleic, etc. This is the disgusting feature of vegetable oil to dry out in a thin film, which cannot be washed away by anything due to the presence of residues of these acids.
How illiterate chemically illiterate manufacturers call their products is on their conscience. I already wrote above that it is chemically grown. oil is converted from liquid to solid, they are deprived of useful polyunsaturation, flavorings, dyes are added and fed to us.
kanga
And I think that the manufacturers are very competent. And they call their products names, just counting on the illiteracy of the consumer. As a person far from chemistry, it is clear to me that it is possible to make a solid from a liquid at a constant temperature only by adding something to the liquid that was not there before and should not be. And what exactly and how harmful it is, I, like most consumers, do not know, but until you tell us, we will continue to remain in the dark.
Husky
Girls, thanks for the clarification and such an interesting discussion on the topic of fats and margarine!
CakeIndeed, the recipe was from girls from abroad, where oil is used and partly, as they write, vegetable fat is added. It helps the cream to keep its shape.
Thanks for the margarine tip! But I prefer to do without all these "artificial ingredients". I tried some products from Italica, in particular, a mass for making caramel., Marzipan. jelly gels, glaze. Everything is very easy to use, but absolutely not edible. The only exception is marzipan paste.
Anael
Wow, there is already some discussion. As always, I missed everything.
In Ukraine and in Russia, at least there is a choice of margarine and butter. We have practically no choice at all. They do not bring a lot of choice to us. And the local, well, generally solid city ...
About the plant deer, I was also interested in Palmin, it is also called. I also saw the rollers, the cream was made with it and it turned out to be so thick.
And from your photos of napaleons, saliva drips right down to the keyboard.
Pogremushka
Ladies, tell me, pzhlsta, can you replace butter with vegetable in any recipe? And how to do it correctly (well, there is a ratio by weight, etc.)? Of course, I understand that such a replacement is not always possible, but there is some basic principle. The baby is allergic to dairy products. You have to be sophisticated.
Hairpin
In bread you can ... And vegetable ... well, it's not that little is never enough, but it can be much more than butter.

And here is the appeal Ladies, You wrote in vain. We have the most important fan of replacing butter with vegetable oil - Pakat.
kleskox35
Pogremushka, it is quite possible to replace butter with vegetable oil, I did this even in a kulich with a completely positive result, I make the replacement 1: 1, that is, 1 g. drain. oil = 1ml. grows. oils. In general, Alexandra knows a lot about replacements with us and uses it with success, ask her ...
Pogremushka
Thanks for the tips. How could I not have immediately guessed about Alexandra and her topic about healthy eating.
julifera
When replacing butter with vegetable baked goods, it often turns out even much more airy.
Elena4ka
I have not used margarine and mayonnaise in baked goods for a long time. If you need 100 grams of margarine (fat content 70-80%), I take 70-80 grams of vegetable oil, if necessary, I can add 20 ml of water to the dough.
Often I also replace butter with vegetable, in extreme cases I can replace with a mixture of butter and vegetable. All the same, butter is expensive, and cheap spreads and margarines, I will not rise to put in the dough for myself and for my family, because I love them.
After all, a spread is a mixture of butter and vegetable oil with cunning additives so that it spreads on bread. So why unnecessary chemicals in everyday life?
By the way, I recently made eclairs and even managed to put 100 grams of RM instead of 100 grams of butter in the choux pastry for the experiment. It turned out as tasty as with creamy, I will continue to replace it
Qween
So I decided to completely abandon margarine. I used to buy it only for baking.
And it turns out that the taste of many types of baked goods has suffered. Absolutely not the look and taste that it used to be. This is especially true for puff pastry.
I replace margarine with butter.

And what to do now? Buy margarine or sacrifice flavor. This story has been going on for almost a year.

To be honest, I did not fully understand why margarine is so harmful (I always bought the most expensive one).

PS: I don't like vegetable oil in sweet dough at all. And still, you can't make puff out of it.
natamylove
Buy margarine
Qween
To be honest, today I thought that I'd better make puff pastry less often, but better with margarine. But she did not dare to buy it. We can say that this moment haunts me.
Olesha
Margarine and spread - definitely not. Although, after reading the article-review of margarines ( 🔗), I was thinking of buying it for trial, but having turned a pack of "Pampushok" in my hands and having read the composition, I decided: no, only butter! (baked)
And I add vegetable oil to the bread dough.
Admin

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Olesha
sorry.
I got confused in the forums.
Corrected the message.
Is it possible in this form?

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